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Starfleet Command 2 - Orion Strategy Guide
******************
Orion Strategy Guide
******************
by Rob "Roy_mace"
For Starfleet Command 2: Orion Pirates (SFC2:OP)
v1.0
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Contents
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A. INTRO
B. ADVANTAGES OF ORION STARSHIPS
C. DISADVANTAGES OF ORION STARSHIPS
D. TACTICS
E. PICKING THE RIGHT WEAPONS
F. PICKING THE RIGHT SHIPS
F1. 80-85 LATE, NO X
F2. 105-115 EARLY
F3. 120 MIDDLE
F4. 130 EARLY
F5. 80 EARLY
G. FINAL NOTES AND LEGAL INFO
----------
A. INTRO
----------
Thanks to Knightstorm for reading and suggestions.
Orion pirate ships are gamblers’ ships. Orion may be one of the more difficult
races to fly, but once you have gotten used to them, you will be a radically
unpredictable opponent -- always with an ace or two up the sleeve. This
doesn’t mean that you need to be lucky in order to win, but that you should
always use surprise and pirate tricks to your advantage.
I am no expert on Orions and I will always be learning as a pilot. However,
it is my hope that this article will help anyone to see how fun (and
challenging!) piloting pirates can be. This article is written with standard
multiplayer BPV-balanced duels against human players in mind. I am
writing this based on SFC2:OP 2.5.5.2 patch and Firesoul’s OP+ 4.0 shiplist
(http://klingon.pet.dhs.org/OP_plusrefit/), which are the standards for multi-
player games on Gamespy Arcade -- this is the easiest way to get a duel or a
fleet game with human players, and is a lot of fun.
----------------------------------
B. ADVANTAGES OF ORION STARSHIPS
----------------------------------
1. Orion ships have the maneuverability of Klingons, and sometimes even
better. In the smaller ships, you will even be able to pull off two
guaranteed HETs in a row.
2. Engine doubling, when used at the right time, can allow your ship to hold
overloads, run at fast speed, and put up a wall of shield reinforcement --
other races’ ships can only do two of those things well at any one time
(this idea is called the Triangle Rule, and was originally writted on
Gnaarl’s Lyran SFB site, which is unfortunately a dead website). The
ability to do all of these things at the same allows the Orion ship to
inflict a lot of damage in an instant without taking much at all in return.
A big plus of engine doubling in SFC is that your engines will
automatically recharge over time. As long as you don't double too much, you
will only take one or two points of engine damage (sometimes zero), and
this will go away after a couple of turns -- try to time it so your engines
recharge while you are far away and recharging your weapons.
3. The shielding on most Orion ships is above average, except for the earlier
cruisers. As an example, the LR+ series has 20-point shields in every
direction, which is great for a frigate. Most of the newer Orion ships like
the BR and AR also have above-average shields.
4. Orion ships don’t usually have as many weapons as the comparable ships of
other races, so they need less power to manage their weapons.
5. Starfleet Battles had optional weapon mounts for Orion pirates, and
although there aren’t customizable option mounts in SFC, there are enough
different Orion cartels with variant ships to allow for almost any weapon
layout. As a pirate, you can pick exactly (well, to an extent) the weapons
that you want on your ship to suit your style.
6. The pirates have a lot of random things that add up to subtle advantages,
like scatterpacks (for drone-carrying ships) and numerous tractor beams.
There would also be the +2 permanent ECM, but unfortunately, that isn’t
implemented for player ships.
-------------------------------------
C. DISADVANTAGES OF ORION STARSHIPS
-------------------------------------
1. Orion ships have very few hull boxes, and not much internal ‘padding.’ Once
the pirate ship takes internal damage, that damage quickly starts to add up
and strips the ships weapons and engines. The Orion can’t make afford to
make dangerous mistakes and expect to live through it like a Hydran or Gorn
could.
2. Engine doubling must be used sparingly. The more you use it, the more you
rely on it, and the faster it kills you -- A.K.A. the Cocaine Rule.
3. With the exception of engine doubling, Orion ships have below-average
engine power. On some ships, the engines are OK (the MR and BR line have 27
power with a 0.67 movement cost, which isn’t too bad compared to other
races’ war cruisers, especially with Advantage #4 above), but on others,
the engine power is really poor.
4. Orion ships don’t have all that many weapons, so even though they can
overload and run in with doubled engines, the attack won’t be likely to
cripple the other ship -- the Orion must attack and escape without taking
much damage so that they can attack again.
5. Orion ships don’t have the exotic weapons arcs of many empire ships, for
example: Lyran FX disruptor arcs or Klingon FHL/FHR disruptor arcs. Most
Orion heavy weapons are either FA or side-mounted. Whereas Klingon ships
might be able to fire every phaser-1 from most directions, Orions can only
fire every offensive phaser from the FA arc, and sometimes none to the
rear. This means that Orion ships can’t retreat while pounding the enemy
with phasers like Feds or Klingons (but they can use things like drones or
side-mounted plasma to discourage tailgaters).
6. Because Orion ships have less engine power and fewer weapons, they can’t
constantly fly fast, keeping the range open, and fire at an enemy. Engine
doubling doesn’t help because with a tactic like the Sabre Dance, the Orion
would need to constantly double its engines (see Disadvantage #2 above).
------------
D. TACTICS
------------
The sad truth is that Orion pilots cannot expect a fair fight at any BPV.
After all, they are designed to raid lightly-escorted empire convoys, not take
on war ships in a 1-on-1 fight. But there’s where the challenge lies. Orions
are most competitive when facing empire frigates, destroyers, and war
cruisers. In early era, their heavy cruisers can also hold their own against
early empire CAs; anything beyond that and the pirates are rapidly outclassed.
Orions rely on engine doubling (be sure to set it to a hotkey, I use the ‘n’
key). With it, they can run in at speed 31 with all weapons overloaded and
lots of reinforcement for the facing shields. The Orion then attacks and peels
away at high speed (the Battle Run maneuver), with engines still doubled
until it can escape to a safer range.
The Orion ship must get in, do as much damage to the opponent’s ship, and
escape without taking any internal damage -- Orion pilots in SFC are likely to
be perfectionists. With a small fragile ship, you can’t afford to get hurt or
you will lose. Most "close and hose" races in SFC are tough, allowing them to
take the first hit, and return the favor with a crippling blow. Instead of
being tough, Orions avoid taking damage by being nimble and cautious, and with
hefty shield reinforcement at times (from engine doubling). Engine-doubled
attack runs usually go like this:
1. Charge your weapons, and overload those that are possible to overload.
2. Hang around at longer ranges (30+) so your reinforcement has a chance to
charge up once your engines are doubled.
3. Reinforce the front shield and set your ECM/ECCM. I usually reinforce the
rear shield too. You'll need it on the escape, and reinforcing only two
shields doesn't dilute the strength all that much.
4. Double your engines and run in at speed 31. If they fire a plasma or other
long range shot, eat it on the #2 or #6 shield and then turn your
reinforced front to attack. Before you hit firing range, set your [weapons]
priority under the Energy panel to "5" so you don't waste energy trying to
overload your weapons during the escape.
5. The actual attack can go a number of ways -- an overrun at range zero,
a battlerun that turns away before range zero, etc. -- but it will always
end with you high-tailing it away at speed 31. The good news is that you
probably just took a large chunk of engine power out of them with your
attack, and they are empty from firing at you, so they won't chase you,
leaving you to recharge safely at long range.
Useful Tactics, referenced later:
Sabre Dance -- Originally, this was a Klingon tactic that meant maintaining a
high speed, firing disruptors and phaser-1s at an oblique angle at range 15,
and turning away to avoid being clobbered by an enemy with more crunch power.
When the Klingons (or any disruptor race) repeat this maneuver, it is called
the Sabre Dance. Nowadays in SFC, performing any high speed attack and retreat
from medium to longer ranges is called sabre dancing. Just adjust the range
for different weapons (proximity photons -- range 12.99, phaser-1 -- range 8
or 15, etc.).
Phaser Boating -- Another term for sabre dancing, but limited to using phasers
alone.
Phaser Enema* -- As the opponent turns to evade plasma, fire your phaser-1s
into their exposed rear shield. As this is repeated, they will lose their rear
shield and will no longer be able to evade plasma without taking internal
damage.
*The Phaser Enema is from S'faret's Gorn website:
http://ghdar.tripod.com/gornca.htm
The Peel / Battle Run -- The peel is when you fly fast (24+), reach range 8
and fire normal or overloaded photon torpedoes off the edge of the FA arc,
then peel away to avoid getting closer. The Battle Run is similar, but
applies to any weapon and usually happens at range 4-8.
Also be sure to know some of the standard tactics, like the Overrun and the
Plasma Ballet.
------------------------------
E. PICKING THE RIGHT WEAPONS
------------------------------
Phaser-G -- The Gatling phaser is cheap to arm and is always a good choice for
an Orion ship. It allows the Orion to always have a reliable close-range
weapon for whenever the enemy makes a mistake. Unlike a fusion beam or photon
torpedo, the ph-G can be charged and held for no cost -- sometimes the window
of opportunity for the Orion’s strike may be too small to arm a heavy weapon.
Plasma-F -- The type-F plasma torpedo is one of the best pirate weapons. It is
cheap to arm and costs zero energy to hold, so after you are charged, you can
devote more energy to the phasers, other heavy weapons, or systems like
Electronic Warfare. It is also one of the Orion’s only weapons against
aggressive enemies (see Disadvantage #5). Fortunately, many Orion ships with
pl-F have twin launchers, and they are in the useful side-backward LP/RP arcs.
Disruptor -- Although Orion ships can’t Sabre Dance as well as Klingons,
disruptors are useful for when the opponent isn’t being aggressive, and you
can snipe with them from range 15-22 to weaken shields or fire through down
shields. Keep the disruptors off until this time, and think carefully about
using overloads when you are running in for a power strike under doubled
engines -- disruptors don’t do much damage at close range and the power might
be useful elsewhere. Only choose Orion ships with a maximum of two disruptors,
because you won’t have the power to charge any more. Remember that you can
turn off one disruptor to let you run faster while sniping, and turning them
all off is useful when you don’t need them.
Drones -- Drones are good because they can be lobbed at aggressors from any
angle and cost no power. Don’t expect the drones to hit often, especially with
standard multiplayer speed-16 drones; still, they are useful in wasting enemy
phaser and tractor power, as well as keeping the opponent ship from chasing
you directly (letting you gain distance). Because they don’t hit all that
often, I recommend type-I drones, so you get twice as many. Drones, however,
become lethal with the use of scatterpacks, and even just a single drone rack
gives the smallest pirate a lot of potential crunch power. If you are going
into a match with the intent on using your scatterpacks for anchoring instead
of using your drones for distraction, then type-IV drones work.
Hellbores -- I don’t recommend them. The hellbore effect is nice, but they
eat up a lot of power that you can’t spare, and doubling doesn’t help (see
Disadvantage #6). If you want to fly around at high speeds while loading
hellbores, just go with Hydrans. ;)
PPD -- The PPD is pretty good with Orions because the pirates mount them on
smaller ships than the ISC, and the PPD is devastating between light cruisers.
A single PPD is very effective and only costs the power of two disruptors or
two photons, while the underload mode is very helpful when speed is necessary.
However, PPDs aren’t good on their own because anyone will try to run you over
after you fire it, and unless you have some side-mounted plasma, they will
chase you until you lose.
Photons -- Photons are a good middle ground as far as weapons go. They are
much better than disruptors for close ranges and overloads, and still decent
at range 8 if you need to keep the range open. Like PPDs and most weapons,
they are best with rear and side-facing plasma so that you can retreat and
recharge the photons without an opponent biting away at your tail.
Cloak -- is not too useful. You don’t have much power to start with, and the
Orion cloak always costs much more in energy than the Romulan cloak. In
addition, the ships with a cloak cost more BPV, so it only really hurts you;
sometimes, the added cost of the cloak pushes the ship up to the range of the
next size class! You should be flying fast, anyways -- cloak, and your
opponent can easily close the range and pummel your ship.
The best uses for the cloak are: a.) cloaking momentarily to lose the lock-on
of incoming drones, and b.) cloaking on the approach and retreat of a doubled-
engine-attack run, where speed 31 is possible. In the case of point B, this
is one time where you beat the Romulans at their own game, since their ships
can almost never reach speed 31 while cloaked.
----------------------------
F. PICKING THE RIGHT SHIPS
----------------------------
For multiplayer matches at a certain BPV and era. In general, the DW, BR, and
MR are the finest ships, and will work for you as long as you pick the right
weapons layouts.
-------------------------------------------
|CLASS (BPV) -- full name |
| -- weapons |
| -- power/movement cost |
| |
| Comments ... |
-------------------------------------------
==F1. AT 80-85 LATE, NO X-SHIPS==
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W-DW0 (80) -- WyldeFire War Destroyer
-- 1 ph-1, 2 ph-2, and 4 ph-3; 2 pl-F and 1 photon
-- 20 power / 0.50 MC
The DW0 is the best choice for such a match: while it is a small War
Destroyer, at 80 BPV it will mostly face frigates. The LP and RP plasmas cover
the entire ship and give opponents something to fear, meaning they won’t
recklessly chase you. Unless you have them anchored, try to keep at least one
plasma charged at all times for the energy savings -- you can use this to
power the photon, which can easily be overloaded once the phasers and plasma
are fully charged.
The photon can be fired at close range (0 to 2.99) when the Orion ship
doubles engines and runs in to attack. It can also be fired off the edge of
the arc at range 8, after which the Orion speeds up to recharge and avoid
getting blasted in return, using the plasmas to fight off pursuers. Remember
that the photon is a secondary weapon and that you should turn it off if you
need to charge the plasmas and keep a high speed.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W-DW3 (79) -- WyldeFire War Destroyer
-- 1 ph-1, 2 ph-2, and 4 ph-3; 3 pl-F
-- 20 power / 0.50 MC
The plasmas on this ship all have the FH arc, so the DW3 can be an
aggressive opponent. This armament will cripple most frigates if they take the
full brunt of the plasma at close range. Since most opponents won’t let you
get to anchor range in this kind of ship, fully charge the plasma and then use
the phasers to whittle away at their rear shield. Engine doubling can be used
to put up a solid brick of reinforcement in the front shield and to get some
speed after charging a powerful tractor (level 3 is good) for an anchor.
Although none of the plasma point towards the rear, this isn’t a big problem,
because you have a 150% HET chance and can smack anyone who is too aggressive;
in fact, you’d be lucky to have someone chase you!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B-DW2 (77) -- Beastraiders War Destroyer
-- 1 ph-1, 2 ph-2, and 4 ph-3; 2 disruptor-2 and 1 phaser-G
-- 20 power / 0.50 MC
The DW2 flies a lot like a refitted Klingon F5, except that you get the fun
of a ph-G, engine doubling, and a cheaper price tag. The disruptors let you
sabre dance at range 15-22 (pretty decently at a max speed of 26 while only
charging disruptors), but remember to turn them off if you want to go fast
while charging phasers. Be careful while dancing -- you don’t have plasma, so
your phasers are the main things to use to beat down the forward shield of an
attacker. It’s probably best to shut off the dizzies if your opponent is
flying fast and gets closer than range 15. The main thing is to kill their
forward shield early on. If you can do that, they will have a hard time
chasing you and you can snipe them to your heart’s content. This is doable
with engine doubling -- overload the disruptors and skim range 8 (4 would be
better but more dangerous), firing disruptors and phasers, then hightail it
out of there while reinforcing the rear shield.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
X-DW0 (79) -- Orion War Destroyer
-- 1 ph-1, 2 ph-2, and 4 ph-3; 2 disruptor-2 and 1 drone-B
-- 20 power / 0.50 MC
Just as above, but pick this if you like drones and scatterpacks (you can buy
a second shuttle for a grand total of 80 BPV) over gatling phasers.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T-DW0 (77) -- Tigerheart War Destroyer
-- 1 ph-1, 2 ph-2, and 4 ph-3; 2 disruptor-2 and 1 plasma-F
-- 20 power / 0.50 MC
This is just like the previous two, but has the interesting combo of
disruptors and plasma (which oddly isn’t very common among pirates, but I
think the T-DW0 is more balanced than the B-DW2 or the X-DW0). The plasma only
has an FH arc but with Orion maneuvering and HETs, that isn’t too bad.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==F2. AT 105-115 EARLY==
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
X-CR2 (105) -- Orion Light Cruiser
-- 4 ph-1 and 2 ph-3; 2 plasma-F and 1 disruptor-2
-- 25 power / 0.67 MC
This is a decent ship for its size because it’s at such an oddball size. It
can’t quite take on the early-era empire CAs, but at a match under 115 BPV, it
will never fight them. There aren’t many good empire ships between 105 and 115
(they are either poor light cruisers or smaller destroyers), so the Orion will
have an advantage.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P-CR0 (103) -- Prime Light Cruiser
-- 6 ph-1; 1 pl-F; cloak
-- 25 power / 0.67 MC
Similar to above, but more of a phaser boat with a better power curve. 6
phaser-1s in decent arcs beat out anything any comparable empire ship has. Use
the plasma-F to scare you opponent, but remember that the phasers are your
main weapons and are very effective within range 8. If they turn to evade the
plasma, do the Phaser Enema. This ship has a cloaking device and can easily
make speed 31 while cloaked with power left over under doubled engines. Use
the cloak offensively while approaching at high speed under doubled engines,
decloak and fire, then cloak again while running (still with doubled engines).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==F3. AT 120 MIDDLE==
At this setting, the Orions have some good war cruisers while the empires are
stuck with pre-refit war cruisers. This is by no means an easy win, as ships
like the F-NCL and K-D5 are excellent, but it means that the pirates will be
fighting on more-or-less even ground. The BR and MR are mostly equal, but the
BR is slightly bigger (two more ph-3, more labs, hull, tractors, etc).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W-BR2 (120) -- WyldeFire Battle Raider
-- 4 ph-1 and 4 ph-3; 1 PPD and 3 plasma-F
-- 27 power / 0.67 MC
The BR2 is almost like a miniature ISC command ship, with PPD and plasmas.
But at 120 mid, the ISC won’t even have any PPDs in use, so you kind of beat
them at their own game. Unless you get a good anchor opportunity with this
ship, don’t try to charge all three plasma at once -- you can’t do it while
maintaining a good speed. If possible, have all the plasmas fully charged
before trying to recharge the PPD, and remember to use the underload function
of the PPD if you’re short on power. If you are in danger, turn off the PPD
altogether and use your plasmas for cover.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W-MR3 (111) -- WyldeFire Medium Raider
-- 4 ph-1 and 2 ph-3; 4 plasma-F
-- 27 power / 0.67 MC
This ship has crunch power and a good power curve, unless you try to arm
more than two plasmas at a time. Once all the plasma are armed, stay
aggressive. Most opponents won’t fight you head on, so you are free to slow
down a little and charge those phasers while you use the Phaser Enema tactic
described above.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S-MR0 (114) -- Syndicate Medium Raider
-- 4 ph-1 and 2 ph-3; 2 plasma-F and 1 plasma-S
-- 27 power / 0.67 MC
The plasma arrangement on the MR0 is exactly like that of the Gorn HDD or
the Romulan SPA+, and in the same arcs (FH plasma-S, side plasma-Fs). This
ship can fly similar to the W-MR3, but is better at the Plasma Ballet with the
S-torp. On the other hand, it costs energy to hold the S, so this ship isn’t
as good at getting an anchor kill. I think this ship is a little better
balanced because it doesn’t need to get to close range to win.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P-BR3 (117) -- Prime Battle Raider
-- 4 ph-1 and 4 ph-3; 1 plasma-S, 1 plasma-F, and 2 drone-A
-- 27 power / 0.67 MC
Similar to the S-MR0 above. If you like having drones and scatterpacks in
addition to plasma, then go for this.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==F3. AT 130 EARLY==
This is the upper limit for an even fight with the Orion, who still has a
chance when facing pre-refit empire Heavy Cruisers.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
X-CA3 (124) -- Orion Heavy Cruiser
-- 4 ph-2 and 4 ph-3; 1 photon, 2 plasma-F, and 2 drone-A
-- 34 power / 1.00 MC
The CA3 has a versatile weapons suite -- good at close range, and decent at
medium range for the time period. Depending on the strengths of your
opponent’s ship, decide whether to get in close or dance at farther ranges.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Y-CA0 (125) -- Korgath Heavy Cruiser
-- 2 ph-1, 4 ph-2, 4 ph-3, and 2 ph-G; 2 drone-A
-- 34 power / 1.00 MC
I skipped over this ship before, but it really is nice for an early-era
ship. It is a phaser boat, and that means it has a good power curve and can
also do reliable damage every turn. Use engine doubling for all the
reinforcement you can get, trying for range 0 if you have the opportunity (if
they fired at long range and it’s safe to close). On the turns without engine
doubling, go for a range 8 shot with the phasers every turn and weaken their
shields for later on.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==F4. AT 80 EARLY==
Mostly against frigates. For some reason, some of these ships don’t show up in
early in skirmish mode, but they are definitely there in early multiplayer.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W-LR0 (70) -- WyldeFire Light Raider (Frigate)
-- 6 ph-1
-- 13 power / 0.33 MC
Fly this like any other phaser boat -- six phaser-1s are dangerously
effective against frigates with weak shields. At ranges 4-8, you should be
able to take down any shield with one alpha strike. Unfortunately, the phasers
take six points of power to fully charge in one turn, which you can’t afford
unless you double engines, so cut down the phaser capacitor to recharge while
moving quickly. With the capacitor at 1/3rd you can make speed 24, which is
fast enough against most power-starved early frigates.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
X-LR0 (79) -- Orion Light Raider (Frigate)
-- 5 ph-1 and 1 ph-G; cloak
-- 13 power / 0.33 MC
Just like above, but I think it’s better because of the ph-G (more crunch,
great point defense) and cloak. Unless the match is below 79, take this
instead.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W-LR3 (74) -- WyldeFire Light Raider (Frigate)
-- 3 ph-1; 3 plasma-F
-- 13 power / 0.33 MC
Besides phaser-1s and phaser-Gs, F-torpedoes are the best frigate weapons
because of their crunch power and no holding cost. 60 points of damage will
cripple any frigate, so they also have a threat factor that will keep
opponents from being too aggressive with you. Manage your power well -- you
can only fly fast while charging one torpedo; instead of thinking "I have
three torpedoes to fire at any time", consider "I have one torpedo that can
fire in any direction, once every three turns." If you really need to fire
more than one, time it so that you have one loaded torpedo, one just-fired
torpedo, and one almost-charged torpedo. For much of the battle, pseudo
torpedoes will be very useful; for no energy, they strongly encourage the
opponent to run off, giving you more time and energy to focus on rearming.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Other Orion ship classes
Doubleraider-class destroyer (DBR): The DBR series is somewhat better than the
DW series (better offensive phasers and two more heavy weapon mounts), but it
costs a LOT more in BPV. At what most DBRs cost, they will face empire
refitted destroyers, war destroyers, and war destroyer leaders -- remember,
the DW series only has to face empire frigates. The DBR is easily outclassed
in these matches. They might have some use in a 3v3 match, supporting two
other ships, but even then they aren’t great.
Example: the WyldeFire DBR1 has 5 plasma-F, but it doesn’t have the power to
rearm these, and anyone smart enough to stay out of range won’t get hit. In a
fleet situation, the Gorn BDL is superior -- better phasers, a longer-range
plasma-G, and lots of power to rearm while moving.
-------------------------------
G. FINAL NOTES AND LEGAL INFO
-------------------------------
I would love to hear suggestions on strategies that you've had luck with,
and any comments/criticisms in general. You can email me at my address below.
I encourage any fans of SFC to go to Dynaverse.net and check out the
forums. There are some great general guides here on Gamefaqs for SFC2:OP/EAW,
but there are a number of race-specific, detailed guides that will give you
a detailed description of how to fly the Hydrans, for example.
Copyright 2009-2010 Roy_mace
All trademarks and copyrights contained in this document are owned by their
respective trademark and copyright holders.
This guide/FAQ may be reproduced in its original form without my permission,
but if you wish to edit any of the content, please ask me first by emailing me
at:
r o y c h i p o q u a -AT- yahoo -DOT- com (anti-spam measure, just take away
all spaces and put the real symbols in)
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